"Best Counters for T5 Raids - Past, Present, and Future"

#PokemonGO: Introduction:I'm back! This is a follow up to my post about the best Pokemon to power up from Gens 1-4 for future T5 bosses from Gen 5-7 and the remaining bosses of Gen 4. I originally wanted to tackle this question because I would see plenty of posts in my community asking if they should power up a specific Pokemon such as Kyogre. Kyogre is the best Water type so the default answer was, “Of course that one is safe to power up!” But for the vast majority of us that want to tackle optimal counters for T5 raid bosses, are we really going to use Kyogre? I aimed to to get full view of what we will be using most often! We will also look at what Pokemon from future Generation that threaten this “Best of” list!This is my personal assessment of what Pokemon are worth investing in and should not be taken as Gospel. Please weigh the pros and cons I list and make informed decisions based off your personal play style.Caveats:The biggest feedback I received initially was that the counters were sorted purely by DPS. I treated all the bosses listed as glorified punching bags. Unfortunately because we have no idea what any of the bosses in Gen 5-7 will have moveset wise, it was difficult to create a flushed out image of what the boss will hit back with. A user pointed out that I could look to the main series games for the learnset and then create models with possible movesets and while this is true, this is more time consuming that I’m willing to commit to for now. I’ll be linking my work for reference but I will be presenting the BEST Pokemon based off a full view of ease of candy, dust, TDO/DPS and many other factors. I also encourage healthy discussion about my choices!Raid bosses like Groudon and Kyogre have movesets that wildly change the top counters. I chose not to separate the counters based on this as I didn’t want to start down a potential rabbit hole. Know your raid bosses!Not every legendary/mythical is included. Pokemon like Arceus, Zygarde, Keldeo, Genesect, Meloetta, Ultra Beasts, etc have complicated mechanics or a multitude of formes that I have no idea how Niantic plans to implement them. Because of this, I included what I felt were “safe” bets for raid bosses. Including everything would skew or weigh results unfairly and I didn’t want to do this. I encourage healthy discussion about this decision and if the community thinks I should include more, I can look into this.This spreadsheet will likely change, and I will occasionally update it and maybe do a new post as the meta changes. New moves will be added through Community Days or just because Niantic adds more. I’ll address these to the best of my ability.This is only looking at Gen 1-4 as counters. Gens 5 and beyond have a slew of powerful Pokemon that will shake this list up but without knowing their future move sets, I don’t know how they’ll shake out. But we will look at future Pokemon that may potential shake up our top tier threats.The future will bring a lot of changes which I can't predict, Megas to name one specifically. Megas will be a huge power leap and without knowing how that will be implemented, I have ignored it.Sources:All information was obtained through Gamepress’s TDO/DPS sheetMy Counter SheetOriginal ThreadThe Best Pokemon:Gengar, Giratina Origin, Darkrai, Weavile, Honchkrow, and Banette, Psychic/Ghost Killers: Ghost and Dark type Pokemon appear most frequently as counters due to the plethora of Psychic type raid bosses. Gengar is always a top counter against the plethora of Psychic and Ghost types and pulls double duty against the upcoming Fairy types (even though it’s not a TOP counter against them). That being said, while Gengar counters the Psychic and Ghost types, it is also weak to them. Pair that with its meager bulk, Gengar is a glass cannon and that should be factored in carefully. It’s also a “cheaper” Pokemon to power up, being far easier to obtain candy for than Legendary/Mythicals. Giratina Origin counters the same Pokemon Gengar does except the Fairy types. Giratina also gets the move set that makes Gengar so amazing (Shadow Claw / Shadow Ball) and has an phenomenal bulk. Couple that with the last of Poison typing means Giratina O is not weak to Psychic either. Gengar will out DPS but Giratina O will stay around far longer for less relobbies and revives. The downside is Giratina O is a legendary so Rare Candy will be needed, especially if you’re wanting multiples. Darkrai isn’t implemented yet and we have no idea whether it’ll be a research quest reward, T5 or EX raid boss. However, with how good it is I didn’t want to exclude it. Darkrai is also a frail pokemon but considering you’ll use it to counter Psychic and Ghost types (both of which it resists) it should be considerably serviceable with a stellar movepool. Weavile, Honchkrow, and Banette also appear with the above heavy weights but never as strong. They’re all fairly fragile but easier to obtain candy for. Weavile has an added benefit of pulling impressive duty as a premiere Ice attacker as well. More on that later.Future Threats: Darkrai hasn’t released yet and we mentioned it above. Enough said. Yveltal has an amazing Dark type moveset and the stats to make it hurt, it will likely be the best Psychic/Ghost counter once it swoops in. Lunala will likely replace Gengar and Giratina O completely in DPS but Lunala’s big drawback is being double weak to Ghost types, one of the things it wants to counter. Yveltal is the true winner here.Rampardos, the Tyranitar Everything Killer: Rampardos single headidly made every Rock type "useless". This may seem like an exaggerated statement but if you look at the numbers, this dino is always leaps and bounds ahead of the next counter. Start saving them now! Rampardos has an amazing moveset and a ridiculous Attack stat. It’s the top counter against quite a few bosses and although frail on the defense side, it resists the Flying types will knock down. Remember all those legendary birds? Well when they finally come back, Rampardos will be here laughing. It even smashes many of the future Dragons due to their secondary typing. This is a hard Pokemon for some to find but one to be hungrily sought. Tyranitar and Rhyperior are still strong and while Tyranitar’s moveset is legacy, Rhyperior is a great choice and easier to obtain.Future Threats: Archeops is a similar Pokemon with insanely high Attack and frail defenses. With the right move set it’s DPS will be right behind Rampardos with a slight increase to TDO. Rampardos has virtually no equal though and will remain anMamoswine, Weavile, the Chilly Victors: Mamoswine remains in powerful position due to a great moveset and a plethora of Flying types throughout the generations, some of which are double weak to Ice or resist Electric attacks. Mamoswine isn’t always the premier counter but it will be a genie-eater in Gen 5 and is serviceable against many others. Weavile is on Mamoswine’s heels around as an Ice type but gets to pull double duty against Psychic and Ghost types due to its great Dark movepool. Weavile doesn’t top any charts but due to it being a top choice against so many things, it’s an honorable choice to conserve stardust.Future Threats: Kyurem, Kyurem White,* and Kyurem Black while these are primarily going to be Dragon killers (more on that below), Kyurem White/Black’s dizzying Attack stat won’t care if they have an Ice type Fast move, an Ice Beam coming off a 310 Attack stat will likely thrust this monster to the top.Rayquaza/Palkia/Garchomp/Salamence/Dragonite/Dialga, the Dragon Hit Squad: I’m going to cover these all at the same time with a special note at the end. We will see a LOT of Dragons as raid boss in Gen 5 and this squad all does similar things with comparable levels of success. Dragonite is of course the easiest to obtain at this point by virtue of being around so long but Rayquaza is the top DPS option. Salamence is on paper, better damage than Dragonite but a single bar charge move is difficult to get off against another Dragon however, Salamence was graced with Outrage for its Community Day move. This puts 'Mence right behind Rayquaza on DPS but behind all the dragons on TDO. Palkia has unique resistances that will prove useful in some instances. Garchomp isn’t out yet but has a “good” Ground moveset (if there is such a thing) and gives it use the other Dragons lack. Rayquaza also counters a couple Grass types (looking at you Virizion) and has some extra mileage because of this. Dialga is unique here due its bulk, typing and resistances. It’ll never win the top spot but not being weak to Dragons, Fairies, and being able to hit both back Super Effective gives it a meaningful niche.Future Threats: Zekrom, Reshiram, Kyurem White and Kyurem Black are all from Gen 5 and … wow, let’s talk about the power creep. Zekrom and Reshiram are promising depending the move set and while they’ll have the edge on TDO, they won’t dislodge Rayquaza as the top Dragon. That being said, Kyurem White/Black has an Attack stat of 310 (Rayquaza has 284) and a bulk Rayquaza could only dream of. If they get even a DECENT moveset, say hello to the new Dragon Overlords.Breloom, Machamp, the Fight Club: These two do almost the same thing. If you don’t have a team of Machamps at this point then what are you even doing? Breloom has slightly higher damage but is frailer than ‘Champ. Breloom has the benefit of countering different things with Grass Knot (legacy) but not much more. Machamp is generally the way to go but won’t see as much use as the above. Hariyama is a noteworthy budget-Champ but the drop in damage makes it lose some placements.Future Threats: Conkeldurr is a non-legendary Pokemon from Gen 5 and looks… ridiculous but if it gets the right moveset, Machamp will finally be undone. Terrakion is a Gen 5 legendary and depending on how good Sacred Sword is, we could be looking at the top tier Fighting type moving forward. Either way, Gen 5 is the end of Machamp probably.Metagross, Roserade and Toxicroak, the Unique Killers: Metagross with Meteor Mash is the top counter against the Fairy king, Xerneas and whallops the Regis and a few others. Roserade eats the Fairy totems in Gen 7, Groudon and Kyogre. Toxicroak jabs the same Fairy’s but with a good Fighting set, punches into things the others can’t but never as well as Machamp or Breloom.Future Threats: All of these Pokemon are fairly safe investments with little threat from any upcoming legendaries. There may be some nonlegendary Pokemon that dislodge Toxicroak but overall, no big upsets.Honorable Mentions: Raikou, Electivire, and Magnezone will serve well in Gen 5 but hardly anywhere else. They don’t pull the wide coverage Weavile and Mamoswine do but in some cases, do it better. Just not often enough. Mewtwo has had an interesting fall from grace with changes to damage multiplies and arrival of Giratina O. Shadow Ball Mewtwo, once coveted with awe, is now dropping down the ladder of use and while Mewtwo has a wide movepool, other Pokemon are doing it better but Mewtwo is still the switch army knife of coverage many people can make an argument for.Unmentioned Threats: While also being stellar Dragon types, Reshiram and Zekrom have another noteworthy distinction. With Fire Fang / Overheat or Flamethrower, Reshiram will be the dominant Fire Pokemon. With Thunder Fang, Charge Beam / Thunder Bolt, Thunder, Wild Charge, Zekrom will make Raikou, Electivire, and Zapdos a memory. The downside here is, if you look at the list of counters, Electric and Fire types just aren’t used as much overall.Thundurus Therian Forme: Again, Electric type with an amazing Electric moveset? Check! Electric types not being the top counters for a lot of things? Also check!Tornadus Incarnate Forme: Potential Flying moveset that could make it a premiere threat but, Flying types just don’t do enough.Landorus Therian Forme: This could potentially be the Groudon-usurper but so could Excadrill, a nonlegendary Gen 5. We run into the issue of Ground types having poor moves and not countering enough here but Landorus is no slouch.TL;DR:The above Pokemon appeared the most often as respectable counters against past, present,and future raid bosses. Please consider your own playstyle, habits and resources before deciding what to focus on. This list does not include Pokemon from Gen 5-7 as counters.Yes, Kyogre is the best Water type but it counters very little in terms of Tier 5 legendaries. Just because a Pokemon is the best of its type doesn’t mean that type is useful.Thank you all for reading and feedback is appreciated! Will adjust things as needed. This will likely be my last post on this topic but will update my spreadsheet regularly as new CDs happen. via /r/TheSilphRoad http://bit.ly/2P56soF